Talk:Timeline
Major Issue 1 - Current Calendar year? The first novel begins in the year 298 AL. Due to moving around the date of Robert's Rebellion the TV series has avoided stating specific dates. This became cumbersome when we couldn't assign dates to events in the TV series itself, etc. Eventually, for lack of anything better, we settled on the principle that Season 1 also began in 298 AL. This is based on the fact that props which appear in Season 1 such as Jorah's pardon letter list the date "298 AL" -- even though, in all probability, the TV scriptwriters didn't coordinate with the props masters at all, who were merely copying what the year was in the first novel. Whatever the case, we were faced with a choice between "use 298 AL as a placeholder" OR "screw it, abandon any attempt to list what the current year is"....leading to a cumbersome "two years after the beginning of the series" set of descriptions. Having to choose SOMETHING, we're sticking with 298 AL.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:06, April 4, 2016 (UTC) On the use of AL and BAL, contrasting with George RR Martin's own system. Based on the sample from The World of Ice and Fire George R. R. Martin has released on his site here , It appears he uses the terminology AC (After the Conquest) or BC (Before the Conquest). This being dates counted from his crowning as king in Oldtown, 1-2 years after his landing in Blackwater Bay. Should this timeline potentially be updated to account for this? -- IronSean (talk) 12:43, May 6, 2014 (UTC) While the "AC" notation is superior, props within the TV show still use "AL" - so we will use "AL" until the TV continuity introduces props that say "AC" on them...at which point we will drop "AL" like a dead weight.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:18, August 27, 2014 (UTC) Major Issue 2 - changing Robert's Rebellion from 15 to 17 years ago, aging up the cast Robert's Rebellion occurred "17 years ago" in the TV series instead of "15 years ago" as in the books; having established that Season 1 is 298 AL (just as in book 1) this means that Robert's Rebellion occurred "two years earlier" in the TV continuity. So while Robert's Rebellion occurred from 282 AL to 283 AL in the books (it lasted about one year, stretched across two calendar years), in the TV series continuity Robert's Rebellion was from 280 AL to 281 AL. As explained in the article, the writers directly stated that the main reason the change was made was because Daenerys has a sex scene in Season 1 episode 1 when in the novels she's only 13 (they dismissed concerns that Robb Stark also has sex at a young age in a subsequent novel - that was distant and potential, what the censors had a problem with was specifically Daenerys). Daenerys's birth is tied to the end of the war because her father died at the end of it, so this pushed back the time since the war ended, and affected the age of other characters like Robb and Jon (technically it didn't need to affect Sansa and Arya, but they were consistent)... Not every character, as a rule, was aged up by exactly two years. Sansa is 13 instead of 11, and Arya is 11 instead of 9, but Bran is 10 instead of 7 (all of this stated in on-screen dialogue). So we shouldn't just assume it was exactly "two years" unless otherwise stated (once and a while we might fudge it slightly i.e. Shireen was the same age as Arya in the novels so we'll leave a footnote saying "Shireen was stated to be the same age as Arya in the book version, we have no guarantee this is exactly the same in the TV continuity, but we tentatively assume it until we get any evidence to the contrary". This being established, we've had some problems with new editors coming on and putting approximate ages in for characters like Eddard Stark. This is absurd. You only put in character ages in their infobox if we have an exact number to work with. We shouldn't assume "adult" characters are the same age in the TV continuity (indeed, the TV continuity actually changed Tywin's official age considerably). So for the most part, character age calculations are for younger character for whom age is an issue - difference between nine and ten is big, difference between 39 and 40 is not nearly as significant. So we're only working with characters for whom actual numbers have been given (and with one or two child characters such as Sweetrobin Arryn or Shireen, we're fudging it a bit by half-guessing their relative age to the Stark children in the books, but also noting that we're not sure if the age relationships are necessarily the same in the TV series). --The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:08, April 4, 2016 (UTC) Evidence for character ages The following is a list of points when character ages were directly stated, and when these statements were made. It makes no attempt to calculate how old they are in subsequent seasons, only when their age was directly stated (often in Season 1, so the progression of time won't be discussed here): House Stark *'Robb Stark' - similar to the novels, they've explained that Eddard impregnated Catelyn on their wedding night (or at least) before he left south for war, and Robb was born while he was away on campaign. His birth is tied to the date of the war. Because the war was pushed back two years, Robb's age is simply increased by two years, from 14 in the books to 16 in Season 1 of the TV series. This wasn't directly stated, but it was heavily implied if not assumed, due to Daenerys, his age being tied to the date of the war, etc. *'Jon Snow' - similarly, in the novels no one knows exactly how old Jon is (I'm not sure if Eddard ever told him his actual nameday, even)...but he was born during the war. Or at least, even if Eddard isn't his actual father, people think it plausible that Eddard impregnated a woman early in the war, then nine months later Jon was born, and he arrived at Winterfell as a baby. Either way, most think that Jon is a few months younger than Robb, but the same numerical age - both are listed as 14 in the novels. Again like Robb in the TV series, we simply increase this by two to get 16 in Season 1. *'Sansa Stark' - directly states that she is "13" to Cersei in Season 1 episode 1. *'Arya Stark' - Directly states to Syrio in Season 1 that she is 11 years old (not sure which episode). Arya was two years younger than Sansa in the books, it would be logical that she is two years younger in the TV series. *'Bran Stark' - directly states he is "10" to Jaime in Season 1 episode 1, instead of 7 as in the novels (or the anticipated 8 years old). *'Rickon Stark' - Robb directly states that he is "6" in Season 1 episode 2, instead of 3 years old as in the novels (or the anticipated 5 years old). House Targaryen *'Daenerys Targaryen' - born towards the end of the war, after her father died in the books (think late 283 AL). Because her birth is tied so heavily to the date of the war, like Robb Stark, we simply add two years to the TV date: Daenerys is stated to be 13 years old at the very beginning of the novel -- though she apparently turned 14 relatively early in the first book -- it's directly stated when she learned she was pregnant with Drogo's child on her 14th nameday - corresponding to early Season 1's "Lord Snow" (Season 1, episode 3). Thus Daenerys was "15 going on 16" in Season 1, turning 16 by episode 3 or so - due to the UK's rules about sex scenes, when the age of the character portrayed matters, not the actor's age. But the reasoning on this seems clear given the writers' statements: her birth is tied to the date of the war, they increase the time since the war by two years, so we increase her age by two years.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:22, April 4, 2016 (UTC) **We could choose to avoid confusion and just list her as "16" in Season 1, given that I think people reading the first novel might list her as "14" given that she turns 14 VERY early in the long novel. The difference of a matter of months gets confusing. It took a few months while queen Rhaella was waiting on Dragonstone for her to be born, but the war was held to have already "ended" when the Mad King died, explaining the discrepancy. So given that casual readers would see "hey, war ended 17 years ago with her father's death, wouldn't that make her 16 due to 9 month pregnancy?"....yeah, I'm open to fudging it and saying she was "16" in Season 1, rounding, due to spending most of Season 1 at 16 years old. But this is arguing semantics.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:22, April 4, 2016 (UTC) House Lannister *'Tywin Lannister' - Tywin was 58 years old when he died in the books (AWOIAF did the math and figured out he was born in 242 AL, and he died in 300 AL; he was stated to be in his "mid-fifties" when introduced in 298 AL - keeping in mind that medieval people didn't tend to live as long and aged more quickly, TV-Tywin is still slightly older than him in appearance) ----The TV series, however, directly stated that in Season 4 Tywin was 67 years old - making him nine years older than his book counterpart. **This gets complicated due to his age being stated in a later season, raising the issues about the progression of time. *'Cersei and Jaime Lannister' - twins, in the books both were around 33 years old when Tywin died in 300 AL. AWOIAF did the math and they were born in 266 AL. The books give no specific statements about Cersei's age, but she is Jaime's twin, so we have to base her age on his age because they match. Jaime is stated in the White Book to be 15 when he was raised to the Kingsguard, not 17 as in the TV series. Jaime was formally inducted into the Kingsguard during the Tourney at Harrenhal - the same Tourney at which Lyanna Stark caught the eye of Rhaegar Targaryen; Robert's Rebellion began one year later, and lasted one year, thus Jaime was 17 when he killed Aerys II at the end of the war, "15 years ago". During the Battle of the Blackwater (about a year later, 299 AL) Tyrion recalls that Jaime was named to the Kingsguard "18 years ago" - 15 + 1 (events of books 1 and 2) + another 2 (the time between the Tourney at Harrenhal and when Jaime killed the Mad King) gives us 18. **The TV series has changed their ages: it is stated that Jaime was named to the Kingsguard at 17, and that Cersei became queen at 19 (right after the war ended)...the White Book's entry on Jaime mistakenly lists him as 16 at the time, but on-screen dialogue supersedes this. These numbers entirely fit - about a year passed between when Jaime was named to the Kingsguard and when the war began, and the war lasted about another year, so Jaime and Cersei were 19 when the war ended. If Jaime and Cersei were both 19 when Robert's Rebellion ended "17 years ago", that makes them 19+17= 36 years old in Season 1. This makes them about four years older than their book counterparts; 19 instead of 17 when the war ended, and then an extra two years added so it's been 17 not 15 years since Robert's Rebellion ended. *'Tyrion Lannister' - Cersei states in "Blackwater" that she was only four years old when her mother died - giving birth to Tyrion. In the novels, they were both actually 8 years old. So TV-Tyrion is four years younger that Jaime and Cersei, thus making him about 32 years old in Season 1. I think they changed this to acknowledge that Dinklage is in fact older than the actors playing Jaime and Cersei, they can only say he's so much younger than them (I wave it away as due to his infamous ugliness as a dwarf). But this seems straightforward. *'Joffrey Baratheon' - stated to be 17 years old in Season 2; reasonably sure they meant him to therefore be 16 in Season 1 (based on Renly's line that indicates one year has passed between Seasons 1 and 2). Of course they probably didn't juggle in that invented character of Cersei's black-haired son, but okay, let's say she marries Robert 17 years ago, immediately gets pregnant, baby dies, then gets pregnant with Joffrey, making him born 18 months after Robert's Rebellion ended - one "calendar year" after it. Fudging the numbers but we can make that work. **'Tommen Baratheon' - stated to be 10 years old in Season 1, up from 7 in the novels - however, when they recast the character in Season 4 they apparently retconned how old he actually is. He is stated not to have a regent anymore (plus consummates his marriage), which would mean he's at the age of adulthood - 16 in the novels, possibly increased to 18 in the TV series? (as per Samwell's comments). This is a separate issue, but hey, recastings come with age retcons, I understand that. **'Myrcella Baratheon' - not directly stated. IF one year passes each season, Joffrey would have been 20 years old in Season 5...matching that youngest child Tommen seems around 18...and thus middle child Myrcella would be around 19. That fits, it's not implausible. But not direct evidence.... Other characters *'"Sweetrobin" Arryn' - stated on-screen in the Season 5 premiere that he's 13 years old. IF the principle is that one TV season equals one year, that puts him around 9 years old in Season 1. In the novels he was 6 years old in book one (age-up puts him around 8-9 in Season 1 too?) This seems to fit the idea that one TV season equals one year, but that's a separate issue. *'Theon Greyjoy' - In the books, Theon was taken from Pyke nine years before at the end of the Greyjoy Rebellion, when he was 10 years old, making him 19 in book 1. He's actually about five years older than Robb Stark in the books. Now the TV version did state that the Greyjoy Rebellion also happened "nine years ago" at the beginning of the narrative -- thus if we say that Robert's Rebellion occurred two years earlier than in the book continuity, Balon Greyjoy just waited two more years to start his rebellion. Otherwise we haven't really been given a firm number for Theon's age. *'Samwell Tarly' - in the books, Sam's father Randyll threatened to kill him if he didn't join the Night's Watch on the morning of his 15th nameday...inexplicably changed to his "18th" nameday in the TV version...which makes no sense. Did they want to change the age of majority from 16 in the books to 18 in the TV series? Well and good. But why have Randyll say "You're almost a man now"...on the ACTUAL DAY that Samwell legally became a man? Why not his 17th nameday? In which case, should this have been his 17th nameday, and it's just a dialogue error? (most other characters got aged-up by exactly two years...). Ack. Well, those are the numbers given for Samwell in the TV series. Samwell is 18 years old in Season 1. *'Walder Frey' - just as in the books, it is said that Walder will be taking a new wife "by his 90th nameday", and then we see him with a new wife when we reach the Twins near the end of book/Season 1, after he has turned 90. Early in book 3, it is also said that Walder will be turning 92 "soon". So he apparently has a nameday in the middle of the year. Given that he tends to appear near the end of seasons I wouldn't clutter this, so the simple way of saying it is that he is 90 in Season 1, and thus 93 in Season 4. Thus placing his birth, as in the books, in the year 208 AL. Otherwise calculations for later seasons covered more fully in following section.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:50, April 4, 2016 (UTC) Major Issue 3 - The rate at which time progresses in the TV series In the novels, book 3 A Storm of Swords takes place about two years after book 1. The first novel began in 298 AL, and Joffrey's wedding to Margaery was timed to be on New Year's Day 300 AL (to ring in the glorious new Lannister century). Walder Frey turned 90 in book 1, is stated to have turned 92 in book 3, etc. Moreover, the Appendices between book 1 and book 4 list characters as about two years old (Arya goes from 9 in book one to listed as 11 in book four...or the start of book four, at least). Books four and five take place simultaneously (more or less). The TV series split the events of book 3 into two full TV seasons, Season 3 and Season 4, making the events seems more stretched out. Events from books 4-5 are simply presented in order. Originally, Martin wanted to make a 5 year time jump between book 3 and book 4, but later decided against it. Otherwise, there haven't been any explicit large time jumps in the novels (of a year or more; obviously weeks or months sometimes pass between POV chapters). We have no official word on the rate at which time progresses in the TV series. Some pieces of evidence: *In Season 2, Renly switches to saying that Robert's Rebellion was 18 years ago, not 17 years ago, indicating that one year has passed. *In late Season 3, just prior to the Red Wedding, Brynden Tully remarks that the war has lasted for about two years at this point. This sort of indicates that time moves more slowly in the TV series than the novels, at least in the case of splitting book 3 into two: a lot of events happened in rapid succession in book three, the TV series split this into two full seasons. Sansa says she's only 14 years old in Season 3, however...one year older than in Season 1? Ignoring the fact that Brynden said that the war has otherwise been going on for two years? Maybe she just didn't pass her nameday that year yet. Cersei incongruously says in Season 4's "First of His Name" that she has been queen for 19 years...she was queen for 17 years in Season 1. A difference of a few months or so, as in the case of Sansa, are hard to judge....they said "two years" near the end of Season 3, Cersei says this at Tommen's coronation in Season 4 which is still not that long after the Red Wedding and Joffrey's death. So who knows, maybe they're rounding. Generally, what we can firmly establish is: *One year elapses between Season 1 and 2 *One year elapses between Season 2 and 3 After the Red Wedding, our timing gets tricky: the central question is, did the rate at which time progresses slow down without the writers making it clear? Other bits: *In Season 4, Littlefinger says Robert's Rebellion occurred "20 years ago". Yes, he could have been rounding....but if a "one TV season equals one year" rule is still in effect, that means it's 3 years since Season 1, when the war was 17 years ago....indeed, making it exactly 20 years ago. *Myrcella is stated to have been in Dorne for "years" in Season 5, and she left for Dorne in Season 2. Yes this could possibly refer to as few as two years - in which scenario one more year confirmed to pass by Season 3, thus all events of Seasons 4 and 5 within a single year? Not sure. The context sounds more like "years" as in "three years", but this is arguing semantics. Gilly's baby, born in Season 3, stubbornly remains a baby after 3 TV seasons, despite the fact that younger characters such as Arya Stark are also physically aging. My conclusions: *1 - It generally seems that the TV series follows a "one TV season equals one year of story time" principle. *2 - On-screen dialogue confirmed that two years pass between Season 1 and Season 3. *3 -...we can't be sure if the rate that time progresses suddenly slowed down in Season 4 onwards. *4 - While the TV series does seem to be following a one season = one year principle, I don't think the writers are doing a good job of keeping track of it (again, what the heck's the deal with Gilly's baby?) We're sticking with the one TV season equals one year principle, until proven otherwise (if someone can build a list of citations to quoted dialogue from throughout the TV series building up an alternate timeline). YES, this is one of the MAJOR questions I want to ask the TV writers about.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:29, April 4, 2016 (UTC) How Time Could Work In The Game Of Thrones Universe Hello, this is concerning the way time works in the Game Of Thrones Universe, I believe that it has been about a year and a half since Season 1. I concluded this with simple math and statements given by the characters, one of the most defining one was given in Season 3, when Sansa Stark, or somebody else talking about her said she was 14, the subject mater came up when they were discussing her upcoming marriage to Tyrion Lannister It had already been started previously during a conversation in the beginning of Season 1 between Sansa Stark and Cersei Lannister that she was 13, so that means only a year had passed since the beginning of Season 1, and the ending of Season 3. Another statement I can refer to was given by Jaime Lannister also in Season 3 he states that he has been locked up for almost a year, I counted back from that episode to the episode Jaime was captured, it had been about 18 episodes since then. In the second episode of Season 1 Catelyn Stark said something along the lines of "I've been sitting here waiting for a month." After that I came to the conclusion that two episodes equaled a month. So from the proof I have given you, you can plainly see it's only been two and half years since Season 1. At the most we can say that it has been around 3 years since Season 3, can somebody please just contact the creators of the show and ask them? I think that all the ages should be changed, that the timelines are changed, and anything to do with age or time are fixed properly. Thank you, if you have further questions, or need my to change ages, timelines, etc. myself please contact me about it on my user talk page-http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:DaniellaP!nk, or further the discussion here. ---DaniellaP!nk (talk) 07:31, April 5, 2016 (UTC).